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Novus Ordo

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Post by Amber Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:47 pm

What is the Novus Ordo Mass?
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Post by RobK Thu Feb 21, 2008 6:40 am

Novus Ordo is the typical mass that you see in most parishes. In the vernacular, priest faces congregation (back to the crucifix). Also known as the "Ordinary Form." It is distinguished from the "Extraordinary Form" or the "Tridentine Mass" or the "Traditional Latin Mass." This is the mass that was used in the Church for about 1000 years before Pope Paul VI changed it in 1972. Pope Benedict XVI has recently liberalized the use of the older mass. There are several reasons he did them. But that was not your question. Smile

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Post by Amber Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:20 pm

Is there a specific reason why it appears to take on such criticism? I have seen websites that are especially critical of it that go so far as to say that the Vatican now consists of those trying to destroy Catholicism... and that the last known pope was Pius XII?
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Post by RobK Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:12 pm

The group you are referring to may be connected to SSPX - a group in schism with the Church. Or it could be a more radical group that reject Vatican II. They are fringe, and do not properly understand theology. For the Christ promised that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. It is the Holy Spirit that guides the Church. Beware of this extremely small group. There is efforts to try and bring some of these back into union with the Church, but I would leave that to those trained. This group is ultra-traditionalist and they deny Vatican II, not merely conservative.

After Vatican II there was a rift in the Church - that rift still exists to some extent today, though JPII did a lot and BXVI is doing a lot to mend it.

The 70's and 80's were a time of rebellion and experimentation among many in the Church. Many liberals thought that it was a break with the past. They were wrong. But the Church does not typically move quickly, and there were so many preaching heresy - often there still are. The biggest area of disagreement was the liturgical reforms.

The Novus Ordo mass was not part of Vatican II proper, but came after it. The bishops never approved it, though Pope Paul VI did. Regradless, it is a valid mass instituted by the Church. It was a radical change - a sudden change (which is not what the Church typically does). It was not "organic" but in some ways was imposed on the Church. Some think that in an "ecumenical" spirit it was made too much like some protestant services (e.g., Lutherans). Regardless, it was a big change, and not all of it has produced good fruit.

The current pope wants the new mass to be more organically connected to the old mass (that is why he has liberalized it). To be sure, there needs to be a greater emphasis on the sacred, and many priests, musicians and "liturgists" have taken liberties with the mass that has undermined the mass and the theology of the Church.

Typically these are the folks who want to break with and even destroy the past and want to "progress" to something new. On the other hand, a different group wants to "roll back the clock." I suspect both are wrong, and the pope is right. We will see changes from the two masses being said together. There will be a gravitational pull that will result in a more organic reform of the mass.

Not sure if this helps. It is not a simple question. But stay away from the edges. You can fall out of the boat on either side. Smile

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Post by Amber Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:30 pm

Thanks, RobK! This helps a lot!
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Post by Khaled Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:13 pm



As to the question of some Catholics believing that Pius XII was the last Pope, the SSPX are not in that category. The SSPX are not in normal union with the Holy See, however they certainly profess that all the Popes subsequent to Pius XII were in fact valid Pontiffs including our present Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, now gloriously reigning.
The "Sede Vacantist" position(don't acknowledge the legitimacy of the last 4 Popes) is held by some groups, but the SSPX are not among them.
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Post by Mary1973 Sat Feb 23, 2008 9:25 pm

Many people were upset with the radical changes which occurred in the Mass. I don't think most people were ever given a good explanation for all of these changes and could not understand why they were taking place. The criticism you hear most often is that the Novus Ordo is not as reverent as the Tridentine Mass.
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Post by RobK Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:21 pm

Many of the SSPX dance very close to the sede vacantist position, and given their holding out in being in some form of schism only makes sense in rejecting the Council called by a valid pope and accepted by the subsequent popes. They do like to nuance the position, though.

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