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faith vs works forgot one point

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Post by wonder4u Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:04 am

i forgot one important point in my last letter. i told my friend that 7 books of the bible were thrown out and thus the king james version was made, he did take pause at my statement and said something about martin luther. also when i mentioned works he did comment on a verse of James but had something to say ab out that one which i can't remember and i don't want to ask thank u wonder4u

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Post by BillC Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:10 pm

For the 7 books that were thrown out, it was actually before the king james version. Luther is the first to call the 7 OT books apocryphal, which basically means non-Scriptural, sometime after the beginning of his revolt starting in 1517. The KJ version was written in the 1600's. These books were actually included in the same binding as the bible but set apart in an index and called apocryphal and could be read but not considered as Scripture. They weren't physically removed until sometime in the 1800's.
Now, he might try to claim these books weren't thrown out and point to the jewish canon of the OT which luther claims to have been following. Problem with this is that there was no set jewish canon at the time of Christ. There was the jewish council of Jamnia around 90AD which set a canon without the 7 books in question, but this council had no authority since Christ established the new covenant giving this kind of authority to Peter and the apostles followed by thier successors. If he uses this argument, ask him if he wants to follow a council of the same jewish people that rejected Christ.
He may also try to argue that there were some of the early Church fathers that rejected these books also...tell him that yes, there was much debate about which books should be considered Scriptural and which should not...and this included debate on many of the NT books that we all accept as Scriptural. The thing is, when the councils in Hippo, Carthage and Rome, all toward the end of the 300's, decided on and set the canon of Scripture, both Old and New Testements, everyone accepted the set canon, including all who had been disputing some or all of the books in question.

For the verse in James he probably was talking about, see James 2:24 -
24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

I have heard people try to argue that James didn't actually mean what he was saying here, but instead he was saying that if you have a saving faith then you will naturally do works, but the works don't actually contribute to your salvation. I know, absolutely ludicrous, but they have to talk around these kind of verses if they want to keep believing as they do. Simply point out that he is adding alot to what is actually written in order to make it mean whatever he is trying to make it mean.
This, by the way, is the only place in Scripture where the words faith alone(only) appear. Note that the verse says we are NOT saved by faith only(alone).
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Post by wonder4u Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:35 pm

very helpful points bill thank you i did find it rather odd that the minute works were mentioned he responded with the James verse. sort of a defense wouldn't u say.

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