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faith vs works

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Post by wonder4u Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:56 pm

hi everyone
i am in need of some responses and insight. as i have written prior, i have a loved on who is well versed on the bible. the other nite as i usually let things slide by, and not say anything, this time i disagreed about works, he asked if i thought i could work to be saved and i said works and faith. he aske. pleased if Christ dying on the cross was not good enough for me. he kept saying show me in the bible where it says works, it is not there. i know it is there but could not tell him verses. he also would read to me at times and that was ok, but he told me if i knew what he was thinking about that, i would be upset...i did know......if he reads to me he thinks i am not getting it because of the way i believe.. he became very angry with me by then and literally picked up his bible and shook it in my face saying it's all in here. i almost left at that point, but he knew that was wrong and begged my forgiveness. he doe not want this relationship to end. please i need some responses. billc..amber...cindy mary1973 all have given me very good insight before anyone else who can respond in any way to this. i need to hear from all this naws at me that my loved one became angry at my beliefs instead of just accepting our differences. thank u wonder4u

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Post by Amber Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:58 am

wonder4u,

Please check out my blog post on this topic... It is FULL of verses and a solid argument against "faith alone".

Salvation through good works

You may also find some helpful points in my post on "Salvation through baptism?" as well, since the Scriptures CLEARLY tell us that we must be baptized to be saved... (something beyond just faith):

Salvation through baptism?

Also, I would suggest downloading John Martignoni's talk called:

Sola Fide - Salvation by Faith Alone? It can be found here: http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/download

Perhaps you can even get your loved one to listen to it...

If you don't want to download it, you can order the CD for free here: http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/products/audio

In addition, if you have other issues come up, you may find some helpful answers on my blog, where my apologetic posts are:
http://thiscatholicjourney.com/labels/apologetics.html

I hope this helps... Don't give up and don't give in. The mindset of many Protestants is that eventually you will give in to "the truth". But, you must remember that the fullness of truth lies only with the Catholic Church. Whatever he tells you that makes it seem as if Catholic teaching contradicts Scripture, is either misunderstood or twisted to have a meaning that is not intended... Every aspect of our faith can be backed (at LEAST implicitely) in Scripture. You might consider giving him a book of conversion stories, like Surprised By Truth...

Just remind him that he must be just as open to learning about your faith as you are expected to be about his.
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Post by Cindy Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:24 am

Hi Wonder4u,

A couple of books that might be helpful are The Salvation Controversy by Jimmy Akin, and Where We Got The Bible by Bishop Henry G. Graham.

If you would like to have them, just contact me privately. I'd be happy to send them to you.

God bless!

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Post by BillC Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:17 pm

Yes to all of the above...Also, you might get the book "Where is that in the bible?" by Patrick Madrid. This will have many verses for this topic and for pretty much ANY topic your friend will throw at you, to show the fullness of truth rather than the whittled down version he is currently following. His main problem with all of this seems that he follows specific verses that "prove" his denominations preconcieved beliefs and he/they basically ignore or talk around anything from the bible that don't fit into their theology.

Now, to your question...Your answer should be more along the lines of the fact that we are saved by Grace through faith AND works as James tells us in James 2 especially starting at verse 14. Your friend will try to say this passage doesn't mean anything about works being necessary and try to talk around what the text actually says. Don't let him do that. Keep taking him to what is ACTUALLY written.

I have heard this analogy that i think works pretty well for this argument.
Grace is a gift given to us from God. Faith is us accepting that gift. That's all well and good, but that gift does us absolutely no good unless we open it up and actually use it. That part is works. Without works, the gift (Grace) goes unused and does nothing for us.

I'm sure one of the verses he gave you was Romans 3:28

28 For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law.

Point out to him that it says "works of the law". This verse is talking about the old Mosaic law and is mainly stressing that the gentiles are not under that law at all, and that works of the law don't save us, but God's Grace does.

Probably he reads more verses from Paul's epistles I would guess. To this, you might ask him if picked verses of Paul's writings trump Christ's own words...He should say no to that...then go on to point out Mt. 7:21 and following...Mt 25:31 and following...Mt 19:16 and following...Lk 6:46 and following.

Then give him some of Paul's writings that he is skipping - Romans 2 from the beginning, especially vss 6 & 13...1 Corinthians 13: all of the chapter...Ephesians 2:8-10 shows Grace through faith and works...Phillipians 2:12-13.

Then point out - James 1:22 and following...James 2:14 and following. Vs 19 is very telling - 19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.

I especially like Mt 25:34 and following because Christ says a number of specific things we need to do in order to be saved and if we do not do these things, we will be damned. I have no clue how anyone can read that and justify in their mind the faith alone farce.

I also love 1 Corinthians 13 because it points out that Love (Charity) is far more important that faith.

And one more thing you might say to him...faith IS a work. You have to make a concious decision to have faith so it is a work of the intellect.

Now, as to him shaking the Bible in your face, I wouldn't worry about that a huge amount...keep it in your mind and watch his actions in the future, but my wife and I had some heated discussions on these same topics more than once but nothing bad happened. You could get up and walk out if he does this again, but unless he touches you, I think it's probably just the heat of the subject at hand. To his outburst that "it's all in here", you could simply say, "yes it is and we believe ALL of what's in there, not just a select group of verses."

I know this has rambled a bit, but hope it helps a little.
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Post by wonder4u Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:33 pm

thank you billc, amber and cindy...i truely needed feedback on this issue, i have a rather unsettled feeling inside since this occurred. i wish i had been prepared with better answers and defense for my beliefs. the most i said is that Christ knows my heart. why would he be so angered at my beliefs????? i have always tried to come together on ponts we share. this hit out of the blue. he always has told me the Lord comes first to him and thats the way it should be. maybe if our relationship ends He will take care of him thanks again wonder4u ps. no bill, you certainly did not ramble. u are very informative

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Post by Amber Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:24 am

wonder4u wrote:he always has told me the Lord comes first to him and thats the way it should be.

What do you mean?
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Post by wonder4u Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:10 pm

amber, my friend always makes a point of telling me the Lord is first in his life. i feel the Lord should be first in all our lives too, but i don't always make a point about it as he does. wonder4u

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Post by searching Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:53 pm

Grace is a gift given to us from God. Faith is us accepting that gift. That's all well and good, but that gift does us absolutely no good unless we open it up and actually use it. That part is works. Without works, the gift (Grace) goes unused and does nothing for us.

There is nothing I don't agree with here, technically. But, are those works our works or works that we can only do with the grace of God? How do we "open it up and actually use it"? All on our own? Lutherans have no problem saying works are necessary as an expression of faith, but they are fruits given us by the Holy Spirit (sanctification) received by grace through faith, and not anything we do on our own.

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Post by Cindy Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:01 pm

Hi Searching,

An excellent book on the topic is The Salvation Controversy by Jimmy Akin of Catholic Answers. If you'd like a copy, just contact me privately.

God bless!

Cindy

faith vs works Salvation%20Controversy
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Post by Amber Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:55 am

searching wrote:Grace is a gift given to us from God. Faith is us accepting that gift. That's all well and good, but that gift does us absolutely no good unless we open it up and actually use it. That part is works. Without works, the gift (Grace) goes unused and does nothing for us.

There is nothing I don't agree with here, technically. But, are those works our works or works that we can only do with the grace of God? How do we "open it up and actually use it"? All on our own? Lutherans have no problem saying works are necessary as an expression of faith, but they are fruits given us by the Holy Spirit (sanctification) received by grace through faith, and not anything we do on our own.

Good point. I believe we are given the grace... for sure. However, we also have a choice to make as to whether or not we are going to respond to that grace. In that sense it is something we are doing. We are making an assent of our will to act on the grace. If we were doing it all on our own, then faith wouldn't likely be involved. Faith must be working together with works (i.e. love)... They can no more be separated than the body can be separated from the spirit and still have life. This is why both are necessary for salvation. Faith without works is dead... and works, without faith, is just performance.

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. (NIV)

I believe, however, that the initial act of faith exists before works. It is because of that initial faith (by God's grace) that we are able to recognize the value and fruit of our deeds.

Am I making any sense? What do you think?
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Post by wonder4u Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:39 pm

some thoughts in response to the replys....i feel it does make sense that both faith and works go hand in hand. i think it matters what we do here on earth. i agree that faith has to come first, otherwise what would we be working towards. and anyway we most likely wouldn't we doing works without a cause. preachers on tv today as i see my friend watch and listen to them...make a huge point of preaching against works as a means of salvation...i know he thinks i am wrong and i even suspect he isconcerned with my salvation. i think i did not mention previously, don't know why i didn't, but he used to be catholic, was baptised, confirmed and even married in the church. somewhere along the way became atheist and them found God and became what he calls saved. probably no hope of his return as he has these strong fundamentalist beliefs. just some more thoughts on this matter

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Post by searching Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:08 pm

Thanks for your comments...something for me to think about.

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Post by searching Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:24 pm

By the way, to avoid any hint of dishonesty, I am BillC's wife....probably why I'm picking on what he says in his posts. Smile

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Post by Amber Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:29 pm

searching wrote:By the way, to avoid any hint of dishonesty, I am BillC's wife....probably why I'm picking on what he says in his posts. Smile

As his wife, I say you're entitled! LOL! rotfl
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Post by BillC Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:40 pm

Amber wrote:
searching wrote:By the way, to avoid any hint of dishonesty, I am BillC's wife....probably why I'm picking on what he says in his posts. Smile

As his wife, I say you're entitled! LOL! rotfl

As if I don't get picked on enough at home... geek
Oh well, I married her with full knowledge of the picking I would get, so I can't legitimately complain... albino
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Post by Amber Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:04 pm

BillC wrote: albino

I've GOT to remember to delete this stupid little bunny...
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Post by wonder4u Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:21 pm

Love to BillC and Searching....you two are truely blessed. as a married couple of different faiths you seem to disagree on certain points with respect maintained for one another. two people in love, on different paths, holding hands for the ultimate arrival in that eternal place. together. BRAVO TO YOU BOTH

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Post by BillC Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:19 pm

Thanks wonder...
Some aspects of this kind of marriage can be quite difficult at times, but we try our best to make it work, and we try our best to not let the differences get too heated very often. Usually we keep a civil attitude with each other. albino
I think something I need reminded of occassionally is what you said in your post...that we are both heading toward the same eternal happiness in the way we each best understand how to get there.
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Post by searching Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:45 pm

BillC wrote:Thanks wonder...
Some aspects of this kind of marriage can be quite difficult at times, but we try our best to make it work, and we try our best to not let the differences get too heated very often. Usually we keep a civil attitude with each other. albino
I think something I need reminded of occassionally is what you said in your post...that we are both heading toward the same eternal happiness in the way we each best understand how to get there.

I second that. I think Bill and I both respect the other's religion out of love for each other, but, truthfully, a marriage of different religions is not something I would recommend to others. I don't have any worries about Bill and me, because neither of us is insisting on the conversion of the other and we both understand each other's obligations to our respective churches. But, an important element is missing when a family doesn't participate together in public worship (especially when we're used to praying, reading, etc. together in the home). There are the occasional times we visit each other's churches, but I don't think either of us feel entirely comfortable when we do that. If we were ever to have children, this would become an even bigger obstacle for us to overcome, I fear. Is it impossible to think that we might ever be able to worship together? No. The more I learn about the Catholic Church, the more I realize I need to learn. I even tried RCIA a couple of years ago, but it was basically a horrible experience with poorly catechized instructors. But, what I'm saying is - if I were to counsel a couple with different religions thinking of getting married - I'd advise against it until all of these issues are worked out beforehand. Not all people can be as wonderful spouses as Bill and I are. rotfl

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Post by Amber Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:42 am

searching wrote:I even tried RCIA a couple of years ago, but it was basically a horrible experience with poorly catechized instructors.

I totally hear you... Studying as much as I did before I entered the Church, I could have taught most of what I was there to learn... and, unfortunately, I even encountered things that were heretical from Catholic AND Protestant viewpoints... taking one matter all the way to the Bishop because it was so "off". Shocked

Some of the RCIA programs are downright horrible and could use some accountability for what is taught!

Bummer you had such a bad experience. However, you're likely to learn more correctly about Catholicism if you stick with apologetic books, Early Church Fathers and apostolates like Catholic Answers... Very Happy

After I made it through RCIA, I discovered that, as a baptized Christian, I didn't even need to go through RCIA. I could have met with the priest a few times, proven my understanding of Church teaching, and asked to be received into the Church without RCIA. However, I DID make some good friends in the process... so, in that regard, it was worth attending.
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